Curse

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Oct 03, 2010, 11:03 AM // 11:03

aside from me being not good, full hero teams wont harm much, pugs are mostly dead, and the pugs i see are worse than i am

then the economy cant be harmed much, i mean, ambraces is something far beyond me, and that wont change

and prices always will be made by players, if prices go low, the people farming all day, and everyday, will have another goal to get more money

but i doubt full hero teams will affect that
farmers mostly stay farmers, as they dont do much else (not all, just real farmers)

i also think full hero teams will only help the bad pugs/players and give everyone another reason to play (even the ones who left), if they like to make builds on their heroes and try them out, otherwise it wont change anything

people have their own ways of playing a game, and those who want solo (no other players with them) go solo, and those who want team, go teams, either pugs or friends/guilds teams

what does it change?
it only makes the unhappy/not-so-happy people happy/happier
it cant make anyone sad, unless they hoped it wouldnt come so that people gotta struggle getting good teams while they go and steamroll through the game

1 more thing, try making heroes builds without using pvx ones, or changing a few skills so it still will be the same, that'll make people not as good as when they use pvx (which is the cause of nerfs mostly, and which changes the ingame economy)

also dont ask any help or ideas for builds, just start from scratch without thinking about the ones you used, that'll make full hero teams more welcome
but then most people say: "i made it myself" or "i made my own version without looking at pvx"

Aldric · Oct 03, 2010, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

Having heroes is better than having henchman. A lot better. It will make a lot of things easier, which would give solo players the opportunity to play areas that would otherwise require a few other human players, or even a full human team. Take DoA for example. More people being able to play around in it whenever they want may cause certain gems to cost less, meaning that coffers and Tormented Weapons will also cost less. For players that farm in Human teams and plan to afford their high end things by selling Armbraces to other players, this is bad.

Players using 7 Heros in DA will have no effect on armbrace price since SC with 8 humans will still account for the vast majority of runs being made.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

I hope that clarifies why some people think it will hurt the economy, and also why they are wrong.

It won't hurt the economy since the economy cant really be hurt much more. Prices of every item bar a few weapon skins are miniscule in comparison to pre-sc/HM days. That also goes for Weapons Mods, Insignias, Runes, Inscriptions etc

I'm not complaining about it since theres always been ways to make money and its not really that important if you don't need e-peen. It just means everyone can have the armor/weapons setup that they like without too much effort and that does not bother me in the least.

7 Heros wont change the price of anything at all, it will just allow some of us to play whatever builds we like. My own personal Zoo Crew ftw

snaek · Oct 03, 2010, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by blacksephir

Fun fact: solo players, such as myself, either do stuff with h/h or don't do it at all. If it ain't h/h-able, I ain't doing it.
You think I'm going to get into a smelly pug full of bad players with even worse skillbars and no common sense because I can't do something? Think again. I never joined pugs. Not when there were only henches, not now when we have 3 heroes and I won't pug if they add 7 heroes. Simple?

i don't mind if someone only wants to play solo. however, i do mind if someone wants to play solo and expects to be able to clear every single area. this is exactly what's wrong with gw: people are expecting to be able to 100% gw solo, which upsets the balance for real-human teams (lol what balance?).

i'm not sure why a pve'r would feel entitled that they need to 100% pve through solo play. well actually i do, because they're treating gw pve like an offline single-player game, when in reality gw pve was meant to be an online multi-player game. you don't see a pvp'r who enjoys playing ra complaining that he can't enter a gvg by himself.

as much as gw wants to try to advertise "go with a friend or with a hero", its a near-impossible feat to expect to 100% the game completely solo and maintain balance within the game. gw has become so far from balanced its silly really. 7 heroes will further break a broken game, but at this point it doesn't even really matter anymore.

tldr; will 7 heroes further break the game? yes. does it matter? no.

bring on 7 heroes already. the new trolling opportunities will be delicious.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Oct 03, 2010, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

i don't mind if someone only wants to play solo. however, i do mind if someone wants to play solo and expects to be able to clear every single area. this is exactly what's wrong with gw: people are expecting to be able to 100% gw solo, which upsets the balance for real-human teams (lol what balance?).

i'm not sure why a pve'r would feel entitled that they need to 100% pve through solo play. well actually i do, because they're treating gw pve like an offline single-player game, when in reality gw pve was meant to be an online multi-player game. you don't see a pvp'r who enjoys playing ra complaining that he can't enter a gvg by himself.

as much as gw wants to try to advertise "go with a friend or with a hero", its a near-impossible feat to expect to 100% the game completely solo and maintain balance within the game. gw has become so far from balanced its silly really. 7 heroes will further break a broken game, but at this point it doesn't even really matter anymore.

tldr; will 7 heroes further break the game? yes. does it matter? no.

bring on 7 heroes already. the new trolling opportunities will be delicious.

how can it break a game where people already do stuff alone?
it only could break the game if GW has no possibility to do anything alone
meaning they should remove heroes and henchies, so that we're forced to play with pugs

and i doubt people will stay that way

why do you think GW2 will mostly be solo-able? because people then have the freedom to choose what they want, solo or multiplayer

if people doesnt like that, then they shouldn't play it at all

i dont like to keep trying to tell people its not hurting the game itself
but anet just gives us those choices
be happy that people can choose, cuz if we couldnt, alot more would have left by now, and more would leave every single day

snaek · Oct 03, 2010, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayuhmii shanbwa

how can it break a game thats already broken

fixed. i don't think you understood my post at all.

choice can be deceptive (can't think of a better word right now). for example, gw has great skills and it has horrible skills. people have the choice to customize the build the way they want. do you really think they'll choose the horrible skills over the great skills?

Skye Marin · Oct 04, 2010, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

do you really think they'll choose the horrible skills over the great skills?

Hilariously, in PuGs all around the game, people do. I'd say a lot of players just don't know better.

BlackSephir · Oct 04, 2010, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

do you really think they'll choose the horrible skills over the great skills?

Seeing as many people think that it's still the best to tank 'n spank, taking skills like endure pain... yeah, I'm sure they'll either go to pvxwiki and copy-paste builds or will design their own terrible builds.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Oct 04, 2010, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

fixed. i don't think you understood my post at all.

choice can be deceptive (can't think of a better word right now). for example, gw has great skills and it has horrible skills. people have the choice to customize the build the way they want. do you really think they'll choose the horrible skills over the great skills?

no, but there are people who just cant use good skills the way they should be used, and there's people who can make good use of bad skills

shadow form always was bad by itself, but with the other skills, it became better... just an example

my point was that 7 heroes cant break the game, or break the game further
its just that people use pvx, and a few of em make those builds, without that, people would be busy with 7 heroes to make good enough builds
so thx to pvx, people can do much more, without people sharing the builds, most skills wouldn't be overpowered, so heroes would be worth less

i'd like to know what you call is broken

(too bad my english isnt very good, else i could make my point in 1 post, although, the people i know DO understand me)

anyway, i dont see a way 7 heroes could kill the game, as people play how they want anyway
getting sick of heroes? then they use pugs/friend/guilds groups, or simply quit, as most have done that by now

like a week ago, another gw friend left the game, before i lose everyone in gw, i hope to be able to get 7 heroes to use

i dunno, i doubt they'll do it
i think they made the survey as distraction, just to give us other stuff than full hero teams
maybe they dont wanna do much more programming, or wanna keep those elite places for those so called "elite" players

sry Anet, its just my thoughts..... no offense, just lost hope again

NerfHerder · Oct 04, 2010, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Try thinking of the full hero party as adding some flavor to a game that has become bland over time.

In PvE you still need a little bit of skill to win. If you suck at GW, 4 more heros wont make you a winner. A full hero party would only make things slightly easier. The most important advantage of the full hero party is being able to unleash the full potential of your favorite hero/team builds. Basically, it would let you play GW the way you want to.

Then there is the economy. SCs, running, farming, and trading are how most people in GW make money. None of those use heros(for the most part), so it wont effect those things. One of the best ways to stimulate an economy is to increase spending. If everyone gets 4 more heros to use, you can bet people are going to spend alot runeing heros and giving them weapons. So, I can only see an upside to the economy.

Karate Jesus · Oct 04, 2010, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Ok, considering that this thread is still being actively posted in, and that we've heard several new things since I originally posted it, it's probably time for me to update it.

So, help me out. What should I add to the original post in this thread so that it can sort of sum up the majority of what we've heard/discussed?

Hells Fury · Oct 04, 2010, 02:39 PM // 14:39

A request for a preview of ... well ...anything.

Also about opinions on upcoming Beyond content and 7 heroes, i think mods want ppl to post in "Guild Wars - War in Kryta Survey | ArenaNet" .
Since well, they deleted 2 posts there cause i was pointing out stuff in this post. (not that i mind or anything)

Xenomortis · Oct 04, 2010, 02:51 PM // 14:51

7 heroes would trivialise currently solo-content.
Seriously, I cannot comprehend how any who can consider themselves a decent player could fail Slaver's Exile Hard Mode with 7 heroes at their disposal. The hero builds available right now (Spirits, strong Mesmer shutdown, etc) are so strong that I cannot see these areas being difficult.
The new challenge would be in the Domain of Anguish and all that'd happen there is the most broken area of the game would be beaten by the most broken shit the player can run.

Whilst PvE would be trivialised for the better players, the bad players will still fail and will join PUGs in an effort to get things done. PUGs will still suck.
The economy would largely be uneffected. Prices may rise slightly as people equip more heroes but they'll drop again after a little while. I can't see the price of braces dropping too much, but some dungeon chest items may fall a little bit as lots of people decide they can solo these areas, although I think SCs would still be the determining factor there.

7 heroes would open a lot of doors for creativity for the solo player though. I'm not sure if we'll see similar one-dimensional hero team builds to what we have now, but I'm worried we might. Current limitations on the professions of heroes may prevent that.

As for the other stuff mentioned in the OP.
Don't introduce more consumables, we don't need them. They're bad for the game.
New items are nice - there's no problem in pandering to a player's vanity and new weapons are a decent reward mechanism I think. Just be careful of excessive grind.
Add to existing fesitivals, don't add new ones. I have no wish to see another festival (we have enough) but we've had the same stuff in the current ones for years on end with very little variety. It would also cut much more into your limited development time and you have better stuff to be getting on with.
Dervish updates are largely unnecessary, but I get why you're doing it. But really, just nerf the Assassin and Warrior so the competing builds are less competetive against the Dervish.
The Paragon is probably a worse can of worms to open up than the Dervish. It's a shame the delete button won't work without unprecedented lashback.

Do new lore stuff. It's a nice way to add content since you already have a setting. Just remember to make it accessible and don't gimp the player's team like what happened with the War in Kryta.
But please, please, please make this cool stuff repeatable. I'm sad because I can no longer go back to some of the WiK missions on my Nec to test various ideas there. The bounties just aren't on the same level. Also, don't throw in terrible retcons (see the entirety of Nightfall).

Hells Fury · Oct 04, 2010, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Do new lore stuff. It's a nice way to add content since you already have a setting. Just remember to make it accessible and don't gimp the player's team like what happened with the War in Kryta..

Keiran should get his own damn pies, candles, booze and whatnot. Also less unnecessary walkings to Dakutu and back only to see dialogs and 0 action. Because of these things i don't want to start WiK on any other character.

Xenomortis · Oct 04, 2010, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

Keiran should get his own damn pies, candles, booze and whatnot. Also less unnecessary walkings to Dakutu and back only to see dialogs and 0 action. Because of these things i don't want to start WiK on any other character.

I didn't want to delve too much into the realms of how they could have better implemented the new content.

But yes, the all the running around just to get things started felt somewhat retarded.

NerfHerder · Oct 04, 2010, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Add to existing fesitivals, don't add new ones. I have no wish to see another festival (we have enough) but we've had the same stuff in the current ones for years on end with very little variety. It would also cut much more into your limited development time and you have better stuff to be getting on with.

Dervish updates are largely unnecessary, but I get why you're doing it. But really, just nerf the Assassin and Warrior so the competing builds are less competetive against the Dervish.
The Paragon is probably a worse can of worms to open up than the Dervish. It's a shame the delete button won't work without unprecedented lashback.

1) I agree, as much as I would like to see more festivals, this is the same reason I wouldnt want more festivals implemented. There is ALOT we would all like to see in the near future and this isnt at the top the list.

2) I disagree, the dervish could use some love. I think the warrior is just about where it should be. The assassin on the otherhand could use some careful rebalancing. The paragon could be balanced easier than it would appear. There have been some really good(and terrible) ideas on how to balance the paragon suggested on guru already. So I think its possible.

fireflyry · Oct 05, 2010, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldric

Sorry but thats a bullshit answer, either backup your statement or accept that your wrong. "I said so" is never sufficient proof

Proof of what?

Your asking for the unatainable and untested.

We are on a gaming forum posting opinion on a hypothetical situation based on subjective experience.Right or wrong...seriously?Asking for proof on personal opinion is the biggest cop out on the interwebs

Where's your proof?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

Instead I didn't read anything from you here that isn't pure trolling, showing off, elitism without ever giving a decent explanation, because you're just too cool for it.

Wowza.

I forgot the forum is serious and angry business.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

all of the "core" players already left, theres no point in trying to please them anymore. 7 heroes isn't like a slap in the face because we've already been slapped in the face, kicked in the groin, and pushed to the ground. 7 heroes is more like a taunt saying "and don't get back up."

Agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

I hope that clarifies why some people think it will hurt the economy, and also why they are wrong.

Great post and I definitely rethought a few key points after that.

Cheers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

i don't mind if someone only wants to play solo. however, i do mind if someone wants to play solo and expects to be able to clear every single area. this is exactly what's wrong with gw: people are expecting to be able to 100% gw solo, which upsets the balance for real-human teams (lol what balance?).

i'm not sure why a pve'r would feel entitled that they need to 100% pve through solo play. well actually i do, because they're treating gw pve like an offline single-player game, when in reality gw pve was meant to be an online multi-player game. you don't see a pvp'r who enjoys playing ra complaining that he can't enter a gvg by himself.

as much as gw wants to try to advertise "go with a friend or with a hero", its a near-impossible feat to expect to 100% the game completely solo and maintain balance within the game. gw has become so far from balanced its silly really. 7 heroes will further break a broken game, but at this point it doesn't even really matter anymore.

Totally agree.

Not sure why anyone would want to turn GW into Dragon Age as opposed to actually playing an offline RPG and saving bandwidth.

Iuris · Oct 05, 2010, 11:47 AM // 11:47

But... but... but I like my single player GW with integrated IRC chat!

Aldric · Oct 05, 2010, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Proof of what?

Your asking for the unatainable and untested.

We are on a gaming forum posting opinion on a hypothetical situation based on subjective experience.Right or wrong...seriously?Asking for proof on personal opinion is the biggest cop out on the interwebs

Where's your proof?

You) The Economy will suffer
Poster) Why?
You) LOL, If you don't understand then I can't be arsed explaining

I wasn't asking for the anything unatainable or empirical I was merely asked for some backup reasoning as to why you thought the economy would be wrecked.

As for my proof, I gave my reasoning as to why i didnt think the economy would be effected in an answer to Skye Marins post.

but tbh who cares anymore

Xenomortis · Oct 05, 2010, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

2) I disagree, the dervish could use some love. I think the warrior is just about where it should be. The assassin on the otherhand could use some careful rebalancing.

I don't want to drag this thread down that route, but my opinion on the matter is that the only balancing tool needed right now is the nerf-hammer. Then you can sensibly talk about altering the Derv.
Right now, more power creep won't really fix anything. There are several other threads where this is discussed in much greater lengththan I am willing to go to here (although the productivity of them is questionable).
The Paragon is nastier than the Derv for balance reasons due to how shouts are treated in the game. Enchantments have a very weak structure built up around them, revolving purely on removals. Shouts only have two counters and two punishment skills, all introduced in NF and EotN as a result of the Paragon's introduction. The game really cannot sensibly support such a thing without some horrible balance issues.

NerfHerder · Oct 05, 2010, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I don't want to drag this thread down that route, but my opinion on the matter is that the only balancing tool needed right now is the nerf-hammer. Then you can sensibly talk about altering the Derv.
Right now, more power creep won't really fix anything. :::snip:::

I find most skill nerfing to be boring, unless its something like Ursan or SF. Its more challenging and exciting to get power creep, which seems to be the way Anet wants to go. Regardless of how it gets done, I think skill balancing should take priority over GW:B content like new festivals.